Alexander DeLuca, M.D.
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Here's what Audrey Kishline told the Moderation Management listServ on January 20, 2000...
(and a bunch of other stuff from way back then)

 
compiled by Alexander DeLuca
; Addiction, Pain, and Public Health website - doctordeluca.com; circa 2000.
Modified (eliminated commonly available news articles): 2006-09-07.
[Identifier: http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/Documents/KishlineToldMM.htm]
 
Related resources:  
Abstinence, Moderation, and Harm Reduction academic literature
  Abstinence - Moderation Journalism and Advocacy archives
 
See also:
Why Controlled Drinking Never Dies - Stanton Peele; Stanton Peele Addiction website; 2000-08-08
 
 
The Controlled Drinking Debates: Four Decades of Acrimony - Brook Hersey, Psy.D., 2001
 
 
The Abstinence vs Harm Reduction Follies of Summer 2000 - Addiction Medicine Shoots Self in Foot, Again
 
 
Harm Reduction for Alcohol and Drug Use Disorders Weekly -
RSS feed:
  HTML view:
  


From: Moderation Management <mm@moderation.org>
Reply-To: ModerationManagement@onelist.com
Subject: [ModerationManagement] Announcement from Audrey
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:36:20 -0700

Hello Everyone, fellow MMers,

I have made the decision recently to change my recovery goal to one of abstinence, rather than moderation.

As you all know, Moderation Management is a program for beginning stage problem drinkers who want to cut back OR quit drinking.

MM provides moderate-drinking limits based on research, and a fellowship of members who work the program's steps together. Some of our members have been able to stay within healthy limits, some have not. Those who acknowledge they cannot stay within moderate guidelines have always been encouraged to move on to an abstinence-based program.

I am now following a different path, and to strengthen my sobriety I am attending Alcoholics Anonymous, but will also attend Women for Sobriety and SMART Recovery. I am sure I can learn much from all of these fine programs.

Initial results from a National Institutes of Health funded study on MM out of Stanford University show that indeed members of MM are highly educated, have jobs, families, and most of their resources are in tact. It is also very unlikely that they would define themselves as "alcoholic" and in fact shun any program that would label them as such. But they are concerned about their drinking. They are attracted to MM because they know they will be allowed to take responsibility for making their own choice of recovery goals.

For many, including myself, MM is a gateway to abstinence. Seven years Ago I would not have accepted abstinence. Today, because of MM, I do. Whether abusive drinking is a disease or a learned behavior does not matter. If you drink too much and this is causing problems in your life, you need to do something about it. We're intelligent people, but sometimes we need to quit debating in our heads, and look at what's in our hearts.

If you, like myself, find eventually that you cannot stay within our guidelines there is no shame in admitting this. In fact it is a success.

A big success, because you have found through our program what you need To do to really live life to its fullest. As Dr. Ernest Kurtz, one of the foremost experts on AA who wrote the forward to our handbook, once predicted "MM will one day refer more people to AA than any other program."

He may be right!

My heartfelt best wishes to each and every one of you as you discover Your own recovery goal.

-- Audrey Kishline; Founder, Moderation Management


What follows is excerpts from a discussion of the Kishline tragedy from the Addict-L listServ archives (approximately June 1st - June 10th, 2000) - including comments from Stanton Peele, Floyd Garret, and Ken Ragge, and also a "Alcohol-Drug Scholars Statement" signed by many, dated 2000-06-10.


Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:54:56 -0400
Reply-To:
Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sender:
Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
From:
Stanton Peele
Subject:
Re: Alfred Newman, 10/40
Addict-L archive URL:
http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0007a&L=addict-l&F=&S=&P=938
 

Floyd Garrett wrote, among other things:

"Now two people are dead and Audrey Kishline is headed for jail. What do those who have advised, encouraged and counseled her in the past have to say about all of this?"

"It seems to have been during this quest that she met Dr. Schaler and subsequently others claiming to possess scientific and moral expertise on this topic. These people encouraged her to believe that she and others with serious drinking problems could at least under some circumstances and using certain specific methods safely drink again."

To which S. Peele replies:

I wrote the introduction to Audrey's book, "Moderation Management." But I wouldn't say the above description applies very well to my experience with Audrey. When I first heard from Audrey in June, 1993 (using the name Audrey Conn, and living in Indiana -- soon to move to Ann Arbor), she was already striving to create groups for moderate drinkers. By the time I read her writings, within about nine months, she already had a very well-developed package, a clear idea of who she was approaching (problem drinkers) and a good familiarity with the literature (a la Bill Miller and Martha Sanchez-Craig -- two highly experienced clinicians who had treated and conducted outcome research with problem drinkers/alcoholics for decades). When I encountered Audrey, pretty early in her quest, her ideas were very far from those of Jeff Schaler.

Indeed, I only met Audrey once, in 1994 or 1995, when she was highly directed towards creating a national moderation program. I dined with her and her husband (with my wife and a friend of mine from SMART Recovery, Rich Dowling, and his wife) in Morristown, along with which each had a glass of wine -- except for Rich, who abstains, as is the official policy of SMART. I don't believe I ever heard directly from Audrey again -- and I certainly didn't speak to her by phone or in person -- although I was listed on the board of MM.

Now, to more recent history. According to an article in the Seattle Times about a press conference Audrey gave following her pleading in Washington: "Two months before the crash, she said, she dropped out of the program and joined Alcoholics Anonymous. But it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep."

I have never heard of Audrey being drunk between 1993 and the beginning of 2000, when she officially dissociated herself from MM. I am not aware that she was arrested for DUI in that period -- which I think would have been hard to cover up. And I am fairly confident that, in this period, she never achieved a .26 BAL and drove on the wrong side of an Interstate highway -- which would, I think, have been impossible to cover up.

In January, she joined AA with a goal of abstaining, but was soon drinking herself to sleep (note her statement indicates that joining AA occurred first), and after two months of which she drove, highly intoxicated, the wrong way on an Interstate highway. Please explain to me how this supports the abstinence and AA model and disproves the MM model. Furthermore, I have read the NCADD statement and statements by professionals (such as George Vaillant) which indicate that Audrey's case proves moderation efforts will fail (as Floyd Garrett's statement is meant to indicate). Please explain why I should not think such organizations and individuals ethically deficient and intellectually dishonest not even to mention that Audrey had already switched to an abstinence goal and AA attendance before her drunken homicide. Floyd wrote, "She received support and encouragement for her conviction that there simply must be some way she and others with a history of alcohol problems could learn to drink again without getting into trouble." Could I write, "She received support and encouragement for her conviction that there simply must be some way she and others with a history of alcohol problems could learn never to drink again without getting into trouble"?

Finally, Floyd, taking a Christian tack, wrote, "Two biblical cites come to mind in regard to the above: Matthew 7:15, and the story of Job and his comforters. With friends like these neither Audrey Kishline nor any other alcoholic needs enemies."

I am certainly not an expert on the bible, but doesn't Christianity encourage humility and self-examination, rather than self-satisfied preening?

-- Stanton Peele


Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:47:27 -0400
Reply-To:
Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sender:
Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
From:
Stanton Peele  
Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Audry Kishline]
Addict-L archive URL: http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0007a&L=addict-l&F=&S=&P=11459
 

Thanks, Floyd:

I am cutting off the last sentence (since I haven't contacted Audrey nor she me in at least five years) and the last two words of the sentence before that. May I write beneath this "advisory" -- wording suggested by Floyd Garrett --?

The tragic deaths caused by Audrey Kishline when she was drinking and driving remind that the problems posed by alcoholism often surpass the capacity of individuals, organizations and society to prevent them at our present stage of knowledge. Certainly no one has all of the answers here. I continue to believe that the principles behind Moderation Management are valid for a significant number of problem drinkers. I note that Ms. Kishline scrupulously and courageously followed her own advice when she found her drinking getting out of control and sought recovery through abstinence based programs. Tragically for her and for those she killed, their families and their loved ones, this did not work.

[Re: Wording suggested by Floyd Garrett - see below.]


And from Addict-L archive URL: http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0007a&L=addict-l&F=&S=&P=11459

Floyd Garrett wrote:

Do you realize that Ms. Kishline, proponent of "Moderate Drinking" has recently pled guilty to a vehicular homicide charge in which she caused the deaths of two people? Her blood alcohol content at the time was more than three times the legal limit. Do you think it is irresponsible to continue to pimp this book on your website?


Stanton Peele replied:

Floyd - how do you recommend I respond? Should I take the book of my web site? Should Amazon stop selling it? Should it be removed from libraries? Should it only be distributed with a warning? Can you recomend a warning? Gwen, you may also have advice for me, as you feel so strongly about what is proper for how I should be contacting Audrey.


Floyd Garrett replied:

Suggested reponse:

"The tragic deaths caused by Audrey Kishline when she was drinking and driving remind that the problems posed by alcoholism often surpass the capacity of individuals, organizations and society to prevent them at our present stage of knowledge. Certainly no one has all of the answers here. I continue to believe that the principles behind Moderation Management are valid for a significant number of problem drinkers. I note that Ms. Kishline scrupulously and courageously followed her own advice when she found her drinking getting out of control and sought recovery through abstinence based programs. Tragically for her and for those she killed, their families and their loved ones, this did not work in time. I have spoken with her and offered her my continuing support and my very best wishes for her recovery from her obviously very severe alcohol problem."

Feel free to modify to taste. You get the drift.



Ken Ragge responding to a post by Floyd Garret 2000-07-05 to the Addict-L listServ.
Addict-L archive URL: http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0007A&L=addict-l&P=R35981

From his July 5 article on Addict-L, Floyd Garrett wrote:

"While we are waiting and to break the unbearable mounting tension may I ask you what your opinion of Ms. Kishline's behavior is and what punishment if any she should receive for her actions?"

Well, since I don't want anyone to be forced to drink themselves into a drunken stupor and the way you describe "alcoholics," I fear for what effect the mounting tension of waiting for my response might have on you, I guess I'm obligated to say at least a few words.

I don't think a public execution is at all appropriate, or even a private one. One thing that really strikes me is some of the self-righteous indignation from people who have done essentially the same thing many times over except have been very lucky.

A number of years ago I was discussing a similar case with a woman who had never been a drinker and it was brought up that "people drive drunk all the time," and what the drunk driver did in that particular fatal case was no worse than what many, many others have done and just lucked out. She suggested that the drunk-driving penalties across the board should be more severe and it was ridiculous to instead take out revenge on the one person who "was unlucky." She had a point.

I've only exchanged one e-mail with Audrey Kishline and that was not at all on a personal level so I can't comment much on the particulars except that I don't find it at all unusual that someone who has trouble acknowledging, owning and appreciating their anger (which is "typical" for alcoholics) should be brought under social pressure under the guise of divine benevolence to bottle it up ("anger shuts out the Sunlight of the Spirit"). I've seen the results a hundred times.

I just wish that somewhere she had had a friend.


-- Ken Ragge



ALCOHOL-DRUG SCHOLARS STATEMENT:
 
July 10, 2000

As scholars and long-time observers or participants in the alcohol problems field, we express our sincere sorrow at the loss of life in the tragic automobile crash in which Audrey Kishline was involved.

Ms. Kishline was the founder of a mutual-help group, Moderation Management, which differed from other groups in supporting participants in choosing and pursuing either of two goals, moderate drinking or abstinence. In January 2000, months before the tragic crash, Ms. Kishline announced that she was changing her personal goal to abstinence, leaving Moderation Management, and planning to attend other mutual-help groups, explicitly mentioning, among others, Alcoholics Anonymous.

That Ms. Kishline was intoxicated at the time of the crash has been claimed to indicate the failure of the approach of one or another of the mutual-help groups Ms. Kishline has attended. Such claims are not in accord with everyday experience in the field, in which relapse is common, whichever approach the drinker adopts. Recovery from serious alcohol problems is a difficult goal, and there are different paths to it.

We believe that the approach represented by Alcoholics Anonymous and that represented by Moderation Management are both needed.


Jim Balmer
Charles Bishop
Jan Blomqvist, Ph.D.
Archie Brodsky
Bruce Carruth, Ph.D.
Don Curto
Alexander F. DeLuca, M.D.
Patt Denning, Ph.D.
Drummer, Ana***
Rich Dubiel, Ph.D.
A. Thomas Horvath, Ph.D., FAClinP
Keith Humphreys, Ph.D.
Lee Ann Kaskutas, Ph.D.
Marc. F. Kern, Ph.D.
Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.
Klaus Mäkelä, Ph.D.
G. Alan Marlatt, Ph.D.
Don McIntire
Oliver Morgan, Ph,.D., NCC
Nancy Olson***
Stanton Peele, Ph.D., Esq.
Natti Ronel, Ph.D.***
Robin Room, Ph.D.
Fred Rotgers, Psy.D.
Jason Schwartz, M.S.W.***
Edith Springer
Andrew Tatarsky, Ph.D.
J. E. Tutton, M.D., F.A.C.E.P.
Joseph R. Vopicelli
Bill White, M.A.

 [END]

 

Dr. DeLuca's Addiction, Pain, and Public Health Website

Alexander DeLuca, M.D.

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Originally posted: circa 2001

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Most recently revised: 2006-09-07
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